MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

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MATTHEWS: Well, Congressman Moran, I want to just read some of the

language in this proclamation. For those who have mixed feelings about

this, I don"t think you"re have them very long. The way he describes the

Civil War--first of all, he calls it "the war between the states," it was

a war of independence. It sounds like the original war for independence.

It was fought for people"s homes and communities and the commonwealth.

They were fighting a war of defense, basically. But they were overwhelmed

by the insurmountable numbers and resources of the Union army.

No mention of which side may have been right on the issue of slavery.

No mention of slavery, just this, as I said, sanitized version of history.

This is like one of those Soviet history books we used to read about, where

they set it up their way. Your thoughts, Jim? Congressman?

REP. JIM MORAN (D), VIRGINIA: Well, Chris, it was written by the Sons

of the Confederacy, who continue to refer to the Civil War as the second

American revolution. You know, James McPherson, who as you know, was the

eminent historian of the Civil War, has made clear the Civil War was fought

because a man opposed to slavery was elected president and that"s why the

states seceded. They seceded from this country. They wanted to destroy

this country so they had the right to own other human beings! And as Doug

has said, there were 500,000 slaves in Virginia at the time. And Virginia

fought the war so that they could continue to own those human beings!

And, for Governor McDonnell to suggest that this was not about

slavery, to commemorate the Civil War as though this was some, you know,

neutral part of American history, this was all about slavery.

And these people wanted to destroy our country, so that they could

control other human beings. And we ought to face up to that...

MATTHEWS: Yes.

MORAN: ... get beyond it, and--and--but it"s very much related to

the first part of your show. This is about appealing to that base who

wants to change...

MATTHEWS: Yes.

MORAN: ... history and wants to change the country for the worse.

MATTHEWS: Well, the progress of America has always been two steps

forward and one step backwards.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: Here"s Congresswoman Michele Bachmann at a rally in March.

Let"s listen to her. She makes a point that I don"t think is defensible.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MICHELE BACHMANN ®, MINNESOTA: Democrats said that they were

called N-word, which, of course, would be wrong and inappropriate. But no

one has any record of it. No witness saw it. It"s not on camera. It"s

not on audio. They were told--they said that they were spat upon. No

one saw it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Audio, Congresswoman? Audio?

Here"s a voice-mail left at the office of Congressman John Lewis.

Let"s listen. I hope that you"re listening, Congresswoman Bachmann.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That God (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Don"t tell me I got

to get some God (EXPLETIVE DELETED) health insurance. I ain"t paying no

God (EXPLETIVE DELETED) fine. Tell that (EXPLETIVE DELETED) he can come

put my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in jail if he don"t like it.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, the N-word was used prolifically--prolifically the,

Governor, as you wouldn"t be surprised.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: The language was familiar from the past. It"s still out

there. It"s redolent of the bad old days. But anybody in public life

knows these words are not far from the lips of some people.

We saw, of course, Congressman Cleaver get spat upon. We have an

adequate visual record of that. And I think the congresswoman should pay

attention to that scene.

There it is. Amazing. There it is, Congressman Cleaver trying--

well, he restrained--he was a gentleman. The other guy was worse than I

can think about. There he is. He won"t even stop with his spittle.

Congressman--governor, you have been through all this. Why do you

think people are going--is this a play for what"s called the Republican

base? Is this just clearly aimed at the...

WILDER: I don"t think so, no.

MATTHEWS: ... the people who don"t like change? Or what is it?

WILDER: I think it"s a miscalculation, period. That--that base

doesn"t belong any place in forging any what I call majority party or

majority manipulation any place in America today.

The American people are past this. Jim Moran absolutely right. What

this proclamation suggests is that that period was something, well, just a

little spat. Well, we did the best we could, but we were overwhelmed.

(LAUGHTER)

WILDER: And why were we overwhelmed? We were overwhelmed because the

right one--if those people that had been successful, you and I wouldn"t

be here talking like we are today. I know I wouldn"t be here at all under

any circumstances.

And, so, it is revisionist history. Unfortunately, it got its play.

I hope the governor sees fit to revise his statements, even revise the

proclamation, because, if he doesn"t, it will be an evergreen story, and it

will be something that will continue to define his administration. He

doesn"t need that. He shouldn"t want that. Virginians are beyond that.

MATTHEWS: I want to get to the constitutional questions here,

gentlemen.

And, Congressman Moran, I want you to jump on this here. Here"s the

health care issue, which is still very much debated in this country.

Here"s Florida Attorney General Bill McCollum, a former colleague of yours,

who is running--he"s attorney general in Florida, but he"s running for

governor down there. And he"s hitting this issue pretty hard.

"It"s the constitutional duty I have," he says, "to protect the

citizens of Florida, to protect an unconstitutional--to protect it from

an unconstitutional invasion of the state," using the words like the

sovereignty of the state, the invasion of the state by the north.

Then you have got Rick Perry--we will have to play this again--we

have played it so many times--he"s talking up succession. We got a

Republican candidate for governor down there talking about nullification,

interposition.

This stuff, Jim, you and I grew up with. We studied it in school.

Governor, you lived through it.

These words like nullification, I mean, do we have to go back to Dr.

King to--to get some refutation here. Congressman, what"s going on?

MORAN: I don"t know...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Why are they talking this language of secession and

nullification again?

MORAN: Well, you know, it"s human nature.

And they fought the Civil War because a man who was opposed to slavery

was elected president. I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that

we have an African-American president who has an agenda. He wants to make

-- create equal opportunity for everyone in this country. He wants to make

this a greater, more inclusive society.

I think he"s doing a good job, personally. But they object to who"s

doing it and what his ultimate objective is, because they think this is

their country. And I don"t think...

MATTHEWS: Yes.

WILDER: I think a lot of this has do with race, but a whole lot of it

has to do with this attitude that government is the enemy. It started back

in 19 -- in the 1980s.

And, you know, it sure is defining the Republican vs. the Democratic

Party. It"s a schism. But I don"t think that these folks represent more

than 20 percent of the American electorate. Let"s hope not.

MATTHEWS: Congressman Moran, thank you, as always.

And, Congressman...

WILDER: Chris...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Governor, I have got to cut you off, but thank you so

much...

WILDER: OK. Good. We will talk. We will talk.

MATTHEWS: ... for coming on the program.

WILDER: Thanks again. Real good.

MATTHEWS: It"s an honor to have you on, sir.

WILDER: Always good.

MATTHEWS: Up next...

WILDER: Thank you, sir.

MATTHEWS: ... why is Rudy Giuliani criticizing President Obama for

doing something that Ronald Reagan said he wanted to do over and over

again, get rid of nuclear weapons, get rid of the threat of them? Check

out the "Sideshow" tonight. Some of these guys ought to do a little

dusting up on their--well, pull out the history books once in a while and

read them again.

You"re watching HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.

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